With the recent introduction of Firearms legislation in Parliament (C-71), Outdoor Action Ontario’s Ben Martin wanted to get the best expert perspective possible on the current status of Canadian Gun Safety laws and what law-abiding firearms owners should expect from the current Government.
If you are a sport shooter, hunter, or just happen to legally own collectible guns that may even be family heirlooms, you should be worried. OAO’s Ben Martin cuts through the hype to bring you commentary you won’t find elsewhere on this issue:
The author is seen shooting a Canadian version of the AR15 rifle: this is a semi-automatic long-gun available in Canada with special licensing (restricted class), and extensive background checks. It is not an “Assault rifle” as it does not fire automatically (continuous fire) and only has a 5-shot clip – which is the law in Canada for long-gun magazine capacity. The photo was taken at an event with the Canadian Shooting Sports Association, whose advocacy efforts on behalf of legitimate firearm owners are proudly supported by Outdoor Action Ontario.
I recently had the opportunity to sit down with Tony Barnardo, Executive Director of the Canadian Shooting Sports Association (CSSA) & Steve Terino, President of the Canadian Shooting Sports Association.
We had a wide-ranging chat on a variety of important topics impacting firearm owners across Canada, and I’m pleased to present the following transcript of our discussion with OAO Nation.
The debate over guns is polarized enough already – yet there is a growing and disturbing trend for Canadians to get caught up in the hype-filled debate from the US and to further inject these emotions into the Canadian discussion on gun safety and control. In my experience, most people opposed to the legitimate use of firearms really don’t know much about sport shooting, hunting, or anything else involving a firearm. They, in turn, base a lot of their opinion on observations from media outlets like CNN, whose coverage on firearms is almost always based on tragic American events.
In my personal opinion this almost always leads to a severe case of misrepresentation – Canada has much stricter gun control laws in place, and we do not have the glorified gun culture that is celebrated in the US. In order to bridge the gap between hype and substance, I reached out to Canada’s leading firearm advocacy organization – the CSSA, to discuss gun control and other issues. I was surprised by some of the strict measures already in place for gun owners – if I don’t know these basic facts you can bet that most of your average, non-gun owning Canadians are not aware of them.
This interview was my opportunity to take the discussion from a place of raw emotion to an actual “Fact-filled” place, which is where our old, trusty friend “logic” is known to reside… And logic, of course, tells us the following: Canada’s pioneers couldn’t have settled the wilderness without their tools – spades and axes to clear fields and woods; but what of their trusty firearm to ward off dangerous animals on the frontiers, to catch their food and store up provisions for the approaching winter? We wouldn’t have Canada as we know it today without the use of firearms – they are and always will be a point of our heritage despite how many people wish to disavow this simple reality.
Today, we live in a different world – but Canadians still have the right to possess firearms, albeit with strong licensing and safeguards in place. Today’s shooters enjoy their sports – whether it be target practice or hunting, and some legitimate firearms owners may simply have a collection of family heirlooms – including guns, that have been passed down from generation to generation. It is on behalf of all these individuals that I share the following interview and the reason why I will always strongly advocate for the rights of Canadians to legally possess firearms – it is a part of our Canadian culture despite what any number of naysayers may wish to suggest.
OAO President Ben Martin (right) pictured with Tony Barnardo, Executive Director of the Canadian Shooting Sports Association
THE INTERVIEW
Ben Martin (BM)
Steve, can you tell us about the work you did previously on the firearms file at the national level? You worked in a high level capacity across multiple federal governments, correct?
Steve Terino (ST)
I was appointed to Alan Rock’s Advisory Committee on Firearms in 1995 and I was appointed to Chair of that group in 1996. I retained that position for 10 years until Stephen Harper became Prime Minister in 2006. I was named as the Co-Chair of the new Advisory Committee under the Conservatives for 8 years after that. So, I was with the Federal Government in an advisory capacity for 18 years consecutively.
As well, I was the advisor to the Canadian Delegation to the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty and Transnational Organized Crime committee from 2006-2014.
BM
Can you advise what took place in 2015 when there was a change in Government?
ST
The committee was cancelled within 4-6 weeks of the election. Members were replaced by members of anti-firearms coalitions with one duck hunter and one air gun shooter on the advisory committee.
BM
The rest of the committee members were basically anti-gun advocates?
ST
Yes, that’s fair to say.
BM
Tony, the CSSA has been instrumental in promoting safe and responsible firearm use in Canada for many years now. The right to own a firearm is a long-held tradition in Canada because shooting is a cultural identity for many Canadians. We know this. It’s a part of our Canadian heritage – in fact a hundred years ago you couldn’t live in rural Canada without a firearm just to survive day to day life! So, the CSSA does a lot of work to promote the safe use of firearms and you stand up for Canadian’s rights to own and possess legal firearms. Tell me what you are seeing now from the current Government – are you concerned?
Tony Barnardo (TB)
I am concerned, always, because anytime a government makes a move against our community of legitimate firearm owners, it isn’t good.
What we are seeing now is that this government has proposed a number of measures that in actual fact will be harmful, and we are left waiting for the other shoe to drop. We have a long-standing track record from the Liberals of attacking our community each and every time they propose such legislation- it’s true.
BM
Steve, you did a lot of work with the United Nations on firearms marking, something opposed by previous governments to protect Canadian firearm manufacturers as well as those Canadians seeking to legally purchase a firearm in Canada. Where does that stand right now?
ST
The regulations on arms trade treaty continue to be postponed, as they have for 13 years. The problem with the marking regulations is that they will do nothing to enhance any type of tracing, by marking “CA18” on the firearm.
It’s not helping when you have the make/model/serial number engraved on the firearm from the manufacturer already, and the serial number today – as it has been for a number of years, it becomes a product code. So, you have not only the product code – what the gun is, year of manufacture even the month of manufacture, and all this information already required. As I understand it, there is there is some question now about possibly changing the draft regulations to go with a serial number or something other than the CA18 designation.
BM
Interesting. As I understand it the original proposal for the firearms marking as laid out by the UN could have a devastating impact on firearms manufacturers like Savage Arms in Lakefield, Ontario – any word on that?
ST
Other than Savage, there aren’t any real manufacturers – we are a nation of importers. However, this would effect the industry that would have to set up new facilities to do laser marking and so forth, all of which the industry has estimated could cost over 200 dollars per firearm.
BM
So the cost per firearm would go up especially for imports…
ST
On the average firearm you could buy from Cabela’s or wherever you purchase, you are looking at over 200 dollars on your average 400-500 dollar firearm – it would make it totally prohibitive and it would impact the industry and the community completely.
BM
Now, one of the issues we have heard a lot about over the years is surrounding “Classification”.
If you own a particular firearm we have seen in the past that, not based on the actual firing mechanisms but really just based around the aesthetics of that firearm – they have changed classification and made certain firearms “restricted” almost overnight. These are things that are done by the RCMP.
Tony, you have been quoted in a lot of magazines and journals – can you just explain the classification process and what it means to your average firearms owner?
TB
OK, if you want me to explain why the RCMP does them the way they do, I don’t know if anyone knows the answer to that except maybe the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy – but I can explain why classifications matter.
First of all, classifications are done non-restricted, restricted and prohibited. Now, to make this even more confusing, there are prohibited firearms, prohibited firearms and prohibited firearms and they are ALL different from each other – and you have to know the difference because you can go to jail for not being in compliance with the letter of the law!
So what happens is the RCMP approves importation of firearms, so they’ll bring a gun into Canada and approve that gun as being a non-restricted firearm. They bring them into Canada and maybe hundreds or thousands of those guns are sold. And then, on a secret list called the “Firearms Reference Table”, which is not open to the Public, not open to Parliament, it is strictly a police only database, the RCMP changes the classification to prohibited.
BM
That would essentially render those firearm owners criminals overnight, wouldn’t it?
TB
Instantly overnight, and it’s not small! Possession of a prohibited firearm can send a person to jail for ten years for such infractions. This is serious stuff! And, nobody knows – the list is secret. So let’s talk about what we really have here: Police creating secret laws to put ordinary people in jail. That is just an intolerable situation for any democracy to be in!
BM
Now at the time of this interview, we are awaiting the Liberal’s firearms bill C-71 to be introduced so we know what is actually in it, but one of the things they are talking about in the media is putting a mechanism in place so there is almost a continuous licensing check. So, you get your gun license, but if you get a criminal charge, they can go back and see “he’s got these firearms we have to go get them.”
TB
See, Canadians don’t realize how strong our system already is – that has been in place for over 15 years. Every single Canadian firearms license in the country is cross referenced through every police computer in Canada, once a day, through an RCMP program called “Continuous Eligibility Screening.” It’s already there.
BM
Does CSSA support that?
TB
Yes, we absolutely do! The RCMP have got this system and basically your name comes up in a police computer some place and if it is a significant crime, they can then notify the police in the area you live that there is a potential for something. It doesn’t necessarily mean they will do something, but the ability is there for them to undertake investigations accordingly.
BM
I have always observed that we have a really strange relationship with firearms in Canada, because we’re influenced by the US. A lot of people see something terrible that happened like a few weeks ago in Parkland, Florida, and we almost tend to view our firearms industry and community in Canada through the American lens, but the reality is that we have really strict gun laws in place, magazine capacity bans, no full auto weapons, we have restricted weapons in most cases on what you can freely go and buy in the US, so it really is apples and oranges to say the least.
However, they are having a discussion in the US about how they can strengthen their laws, and one of the issues is surrounding mental health. Does the CSSA support or foresee any measures designed to protect the Canadian public in terms of trying to enhance the gun licensing process by including mental health mechanisms?
TB
Without knowing what we are going to see from the Government in C-71, let’s say yes. We support anything we can do to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and people with severe mental health issues. However, let’s not go over the top. People’s medical records are covered under the privacy act for a reason – because people can have their medical records used against them. We don’t want to see this turn into a proverbial free-for-all.
In Canada, gun owners have more restrictions on them than pedophiles or murderers upon release from jail – think about that. Someone who has been convicted of a serious violent crime, they don’t have to inform the police every time they move – they don’t have to tell the police every piece of property they own; but gun owners are in that situation. We are treated worse than these criminals – that is very offensive to legitimate law-abiding firearm owners across Canada.
So do we support mental health checks in line with licensing – yes, but it has to be measured, and we don’t want anything that negatively effects the Canadian firearms community, or any other community for that matter.
BM
CSSA has always been fair with their commentary in the public eye and I respect that you are experts. I wanted to hear directly from you so I thank you for this. Before we finish I was hoping if you had any other points you wanted to make with OAO Nation, please feel free to share it with me now. Any key issues or anything you wish to identify.
TB
OK well let’s talk about this new number floating around that 50% of the crime guns are sourced in Canada. First of all, 5% of the crime guns used in Canada are registered – have EVER been registered. So when you are talking about handguns, the number 1 gun of choice for criminals, if it originated in Canada it would be registered in Canada. And, they’re not.
The second thing is that all police services, if they can’t trace the firearm successfully, they go into the Canada statistical pile. So, we’re getting firearms attributed to us by default because the police can’t trace them!
BM
So if the numbers have been filed off them, you can’t trace that weapon really– and most criminals file the numbers off of a firearm as far as I’ve ever heard…
TB
Yes sometimes they do, and so those weapons would go into a pile marked “Canada”
BM
And we know that most of these weapons, especially the handguns, are coming from south of the border – this is just a simple fact we all know.
TB
Yes, and the third thing to raise is very important: the Canada Border Service Agency (CBSA) are doing a wonderful job on the interdiction of guns coming across the border – but have you noticed they never give you these numbers as raw numbers, it’s always percentages. So let’s suppose this: CBSA has 100 crime guns coming across into the country, 50 are stopped at the border, and 50 of them are actually sourced locally afterwards in crimes – if they can’t trace these firearms, now 50% of the guns come from Canada – any gun they can’t trace goes into the Canada statistic. So, these numbers we are seeing from the Government on this issue are fudged on what is coming across the border. However, when we see there has been a 44% increase in murder this year by firearms, and there has also been a 45% increase in gun crime by gangs – those are remarkably similar figures! It’s not ordinary people that are killing each other, it’s the gangs – the gangs are right out of control.
BM
Just one final question going back to C-71, the upcoming firearms bill: Is it safe to say that CSSA was not approached in a consultative manner for the bill that’s about to be put forward in Parliament:
TB/ST
Absolutely. That’s fair to say.
BM
And are you not the largest firearms advocacy organization in Canada with the most experts on board?
TB/ST
Yes, we are.
BM
That really defies logic – that the largest, most expertise-filled organization charged with responsible firearms promotion, because you guys have always stressed that, safe and responsible use – not one person from Public Safety or the Prime Minister’s Office reached out to get any information whatsoever from you or your organizational membership.
ST
If you have your readers check out the Canada Gazette from August 2015 there are 5 firearm experts listed in there – first time it’s ever been done, all five of them listed were from CSSA. So the expertise lies there, and it’s an incredible expertise that’s been there for over 20 years, and our advice has been accepted by both Liberals and Conservative governments previously. However, since the 2015 election – nothing.
TB
It’s not because CSSA or whoever goes out and recruits the experts – the experts come to us because we are the safe haven for them.
BM
And if I have a question, I just write you an email.
TB
Absolutely, any time.
BM
Thanks so much gentlemen, I appreciate it.
You can follow news about the CSSA at their website, and on Facebook.